list of non calvinist theologians

What bothers me is that your leaders disregard my objections, calling me barely a Christian or saying that Olson is not a Christian.. And the reason I identify that way is not because I want to convert people, but because I just didnt like all the hatred spewed out at the belief system. These leaders are not MY leader, and they are not the leaders of the men and women at my church. Yes, they too wrote thousands of pages, but at least they werent lawyers! Is not the whole batch totally leavened regardless of the amount of yeast? 1) That article. They cant seem to express their experience and pain without having a conversation with some authentic Calvinist/Reformer/Tulip believer (Whatever that means. He was the leading French Protestant reformer and the most important figure in the second generation of the Protestant Reformation. Remember, Calvinism is merely the invoking of associative meaning, not real meaning. Im very glad that I can call you a sister in our Lord and a friend.. . Can we not make allowance for Gods ways to be different from ours? If I did that, I would lose the single greatest tool I have for refining my ideas: discussion, debate, disagreement (three ds). whats so complicated about that? Here's the list showing the long line of Calvinistic SBC presidents For example, the word total in Total Depravity is an absolutethere is no such rational idea as partly total, which is what some Calvinists want to say when they declare that humans are not as bad as they could beas if this matters in the dualistic Calvinist paradigm: God is Good, and youare not. [deleted] 6 yr. ago. Theyre like rival sects of Muslims in Iraq & Syria. And I will not say I could bebecause many of us understand that once we concede that men and women cannot know truth, then there is only one thing left to decide who gets to wield Gods authority on earth, because reason and logically reconcilable ideas have no place in truth: violence. Hence the terrible attitude of many evangelicals towards science. To how many times I felt unsure and afraid & indeed crashed and burned big time in front of people. I witnessed a weird detachment with this thinking, and people almost having to downplay love or relationship with others.. Pray for him. I dont have experience of dealing with, or helping someone else deal with, child sex abuse; and of course I dont have experience of being someone else. Im sure many of us can point out similar starts in our own Christian lives where we later realised that some of the things we were taught were not quite Scriptural, and yet through certain people we came to Christ. Ive not tried to convince anyone to be a Calvinist. In this final submission on this series, I interact with the [] As for the double predestination, I wouldnt agree with either position youve posted but that is no surprise, as Im a non Calvinist. Reformed/Calvinist scholars and Preachers I really like I want people to love God and love their neighbors. I cant explain it, but the very thought of it is a testimony to His love for us ALL. Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, (You must log in or sign up to post here. I know of Hortons book and I shall read that after I finish Olson. The Greatest 20th Century Theologians LL.B (Hons) London, CLP. This is one of the few places where that doesnt happen on a regular basis! The simple interpretation of total depravity is this: because you are human (totally), you are perpetually and inexorably morally corrupt, and the only way you can understand any truth is if God functionally does it for you via the doctrine of arbitrary election. Id prefer not to use the word to describe myself. Prayers are sustaining me right now. Cant wait to read the comments section of Dees forthcoming post to Calvinists. Right thinking about what God himself teaches us about himself, us, our world, and salvation matters deeply. Their scholarship seems smug and oddly ineffectual (quoted by one mother) and yes, it later became apparent that The Way was actually doctrinally aberrant and yet through this article you were drawn to Jesus, so maybe this suggests God sometimes uses unlikely means to create new believers? Ann. Or if I make it to the Board of Ordained Ministry in February, Ill share my recording. Calvin is a little deep to get through, not to mention that the language structure is about 500 years old and not written in English. I am not saying that Calvinists are going to hell or anything radical like that. But, within the week, I opened my Bible and read 1John1 and knew it was speaking about me. Would really like to read Against Calvinism, as Im still sorting through the havoc that Calvinism caused in my own spiritual life (or, at least, the version of it I latched on to). But when I look at the attitude of evangelism presented in scripture, it seems a lot closer to how an Arminian would frame it: a call of hope to those who would repent and turn to God. That Cals portray Cal in so many ways, even on the same points, adds another layer of confusion to the conversation for me. Its sobering that these are the very things that will be withheld from me in many church settings because doing is reflexively conflated with striving and I need to learn to rest in Daddy/Mummy Gods unconditional love. Good to be reminded we are not at war with fellow believers and its never wrong to be kind. I sympathise with Jeff about all the tar spattered in his direction. I would be some place where I could state my beliefs openly. As you can imagine, though, I am still reeling from the Aug. 4 diagnosis. Of late it has been a struggle not yo become angry at some YRR who belittle my longtime walk with the Lord because I am not a Calvinist. I am a non-Calvinist (not quite an Arminian either) who lives and moves and has my being amongst Calvinists, the overwhelmingly dominant brand in my neck of the woods. She called me and we had a good talk. If a megachurch pastor somewhere announced that as a Calvinist he was now going to start killing and eating babies, I would not hold this against small-c calvinists in general. We were just grateful to be around otherChristians. Gordon Fee 30. Thats why. Loving hurting people in real ways (listening/caring/supporting) can help SAVE lives, emotionally, spiritually, and even physically. The fervor of thismovement reminds me of theearly, heady days oftheJesus movement. They probably have read other books about Calvin doctrines, but never the original. I get called an Arminian routinelyLOL, I dont even know anything about Arminianism. IMO he has helped destroy the Southern Baptist Convention, but no one dare tell him this. I hear the person,"Calvin," discussed more than "Jesus." There are days I really have to remind myself that God still very much loves people who have little love or respect for me or other Arminian Christians. They are the ones who preach and teach and write as if five point "TULIP" Calvinism is part of the gospel itself and anyone who does not believe in it is only "almost Christian" or "Christian,. As I was leaving Dallas, a man I did not know well approached me in church and said he wanted to correct something I had said. I think Heb. @ Jeff S: I dont know. 1) That article. In fact, I recently wrote a song about it- some of the lyrics (this song could be titled ode to John Piper and his views on Divorce and Remarriage, but I did not quite go that far): So many people with big ideas who have it all figured out Groovy, man. The ideas of bad and good are meaningless in Calvinist doctrine. So help me now - these labels are mind boggling - if I see on a list somewhere that so and so is a Calvinist, or an Arminian, or Pelagist (and I know I messed that word up and every time I saw it I went back to my marine biology days and thought about deep ocean life as the words are similar so I would picture the man from Atlantis and get very sidetracked in whatever idea was being posted . Wade is one of the most loving pastors that we have ever had the joy to meet. I dont know if that helps or confuses- I wish I could have quoted more. considering you are being so charitable and I called Calvinism a horrible doctrine. @ Jeff S: No offense, Jeff, but a bit upthread you mentioned the concept of God choosing what kinds of evil he allows I find that deeply troubling. Ive become a more capable musician as a result. That is what total and depravity mean these days, after all. Ive done better with some on TWW than others, many times because of my own insensitivity. I told her that I disagree with John Piper's take on this situation. What I am saying is that there is such a thing as finding joy in salvation, thanking God for His grace, but accepting that there is peace to be found in paradoxes. I might get around to it, at some point. They tend to carry on for a long time about it and end up calling people heretic (Ive seen this done on both sides of the debate though ) as the conversation ensues. Lots of the Calvinists I have come across on the internet the past 13 15 years think you have to have advanced college degrees, spend ten years in school, be fluent in Hebrew and Koine Greek, have an exhaustive knowledge of the patristic writings, etc., to not only truly grasp Calvinism, but in their eyes, to be permitted to even begin to criticize it. And I *know* that I sounded every bit as naive as those kids in the article. I told her that we, as non-Calvinists, have to move beyond what we believe is the logical conclusion of their argument (God orchestrating evil and pain) and try to understand that somehow Calvinists, who suggest a God who allows for abuse, is actually a God of love. Thank you for helping me out. FWIW, Ive run across many Calvinists (not teachers) who misunderstand Total Depravity. Ill never forget a while back in our city when two young Christian college kids were killed, execution style, in a terrible, senseless crime. System- & neat-little-box-free. Yet, somewhere after the third paragraph, this young, rudderless teen stopped reading, glanced over at Star Trek on the television, began to cry, whispered, I believe and crossed that final frontier from unbelief into belief. The fundamental non-negotiables of our faith, those that if not agreed upon prevent us from calling each other brothers or sisters are found in 4 ancient creeds. I saw this is a problem, and I do think Deb and Dee have addressed it. Glad youre mentioning Roger Olson, Dee. LOLGod works in mysterious and wonderful ways! So this is a goal for myself, as my family is growing up and I am finding a bit more time. My bet would be that some (many?) Agree. And further, since Calvinism declares that God elects never based on any acts or will of man, of what use is it even to distinguish between good and evil, even if man could know them? What I DO think is clear is that God can use evil for good and he works all things for good of those with faith in him. This never seemed hard to understand to me. Every kindness & every meanness I do sends ripples outward and I birth the future by my words and deeds. Even though I have now separated myself from that belief system, connecting with those words brought me right back to those intense feelings of God was right there watching me get abused and didnt do a darn thing about it. So I posted my abuse story/Calvin connection and have tried to keep that thread safe. The Calvinism debate thread is a great place to really get into the nitty gritty of those tough issues. The ranks of well-known Arminians include historical and current day Roman Catholics, the Remonstrants of the 17th century and John and Charles Wesley. Itook to reading Calvin, Sproul, Edwards, Grudem, Piper, et al. Thats misrepresenting my heart, Argo! Deb and are are well aware of the criticism we are receiving from some non-Calvinists because we feature sermons by Wade Burleson. If we are acting primarily out of love, this becomes good works and is worthless. Wife (whose abusive first husband was one of the biggest drug dealers in the Midwest before she divorced him) was my Lamaze coach. Calvin as a Ferengi LOL!!! Would you drink a glass of water with just a little flesh eating bacteria in it? Only a source of proof-texts for Calvins Institutes. There is nothing wrong with being emotional about it, either, except that we need to not use it to demean the other. But, knowing that this type of discussion triggers upsetting thoughts, why did you encourage it? I ask that you likewise dont look down on me and others who hold this view of God. But it is you, a man like myself, my companion, my close friend, with whom I once enjoyed sweet fellowship at the house of God, as we walked about among the worshippers. I accept with humility that there are things that I cannot understand. I would really like to understand this assertion you made. Feels your pain with you. Under that, Calvins page count is over 2400 pages of theological system, over TEN TIMES the length of a typical genre novel of the Seventies, over FIVE TIMES the length of a typical paperback today, and at least 2/3 the length of the Lord of the Rings. If you think I should be silent whenever I see Calvinism misrepresnted, then that isnt right. Maybe I dont get out enough, but I cant remember the last time I heard or read a Calvinist leader saying these kinds of things, unless they were referring to someone like Brian McLaren. I.E. Do they represent your brand of reformed thought? That is a love that does not send babies or the mentally unable to hell, nor is it a love that creates people predestined to hell, but rather gives them a choice and only when repeatedly rejected, judges people for their rejection of him. I disagree. We are glad that you do. The hard part about this is I dont think these folks even realize what they are doing. And I get better at flying (so to speak). Theologians - Laikos Theologos Dr Abraham Kuyper (1837-1920) was a Dutch Calvinist theologian, philosopher and politician. He is still in a leadership position within the church. The seeds of justification by doctrine were sown a long time ago. With fear and trembling I'll list Sren Kierkegaard. Jeff S wrote: God ordains everything and man has a degree of free will how can these both be true? @ Julie Anne: Hi guys, great posts, esp (from a personal point of view) from Jeff S, TW, Nick Bulbeck and others its been such a long thread I cant remember them all . (LogOut/ And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. The second is this: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said to him, You are right, Teacher. Thank you, thank you, for getting it right! John Piper (46:41) "This is the one you're all waiting for," Dever quips. A person who has been abused should get A LOT of leeway in airing their feelings, because for a time (maybe a LONG time), the value of their free expression is more important than trying to protect a viewpoint. When I, a Calvinist (as much as would prefer not to wear the title), hear someone say Calvinism is evil, yes I want to defend it. The Calvinist thought process is: God has foreordained every word I say, therefore, I cannot be wrong. We are to not worry about that; rather, be glad that any are saved. If you continue to use this site we will assume that you are happy with it. It was your comment about illogic that got me to thinking. Mennonite churches are great in Canada, evangelical, women allowed in all roles, and not really on one side or the other, but are focused on outreach, missions and allow many different people to preach in their pulpits (including some who would call themselves Reformed). Membership Covenants As Ive said, Id prefer not to discuss Calvinism at all. Theological Review of the CSB Study Bible Notes - Adam Harwood Churches that sever the root of truth may seem to flourish for a season, but they will wither soon, or turn into something besides a Christian church. BTW-Wade Burleson told his church my conversion story which generated a few laughs. When I struggle with this, my answer is always to look at the Cross- it seems all theists must deal with a God who allows evil. So, I disagree with your choice of word infantilised because in my example Im talking about giving someone hurting exactly what they need (emotionally/spiritually) at the precise time they need it just like breastmilk. God is NOT in control. They are harmed by the teachings they sat under and then accused of misrepresentation when they blog about it. I met my husband when he wandered over to Park Street after he attended a service at Tremont Temple. Of course, this is an attempt of a finite mind to describe the infinite, so it cant be perfectly accurate. I know theories of the atonement impact stuff, but I just cant get into that whole debate for some reason. Were doing well so We must be Righteous is Prosperity Gospel crap. Believe me, Ive tried. We will briefly survey these five points of disagreement and . I would say its better to address individual issues anyway rather than decided if you can accept the tag. And it seems the Neo-Cals operate the opposite way: they view everyone else from a Calvinist lens and themselves through an Arminian one. And if the term is ambiguous, then I its wise to be careful and specific in criticism. Im concerned with the preoccupation of defending Calvin when someone is hurting. http://www.pbs.org/thisemotionallife/topic/happiness/helping-others. 1. He does not reject the Gospel, but he does reject predestination as presented by Calvin. etc. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding. I am sure that I didn't pray correctly. A A Arminianism refers to a belief structure ascribed to Jacobus Arminius (1560-1609), a Dutch Christian theologian who studied the tenants of Calvinism. We can learn to receive it all. Since I have never read Instititues, I cant be more specific. EGOTISM. I know. That was pretty much the last straw for me. He is a loving man in spite of the baloney flung his way. I dont think God wanted this to happen- any more than he plans for children to be abused or any other of the litany of horrors that go on in this world. It sounds like you are making a systematic presentation of theology the gospel. I didnt say we should be satisfied with the milk of the word. Baptists and Their Theology - Baptist History JeffB Great question and Im glad you asked. And honestly, whether they admit it or not, it appears to me most of the good Calvinist I know operate that way anyway. Never once, have I ever thought that these folks were not saved. Especially the statements above. @JohnPiper: Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head and fell on the ground and worshiped.Job 1:20. No one is trying to convince him otherwise. I actually returned here wondering if you would even let my comment stand, considering you are being so charitable and I called Calvinism a horrible doctrine! Im not always that good at explaining things well. Chezaro 6 yr. ago. The way total depravity was explained to me (via a G. I. Williamson commentary on one of the Westminster Catechisms, cant remember if it was longer or shorter) was with the example of a glass of water. Youd be welcome at the table in my wigwam too Jeff. Here are a few more (not necessarily Arminian but non-Calvnists): John Wycliffe, Vincent Taylor, John McClintock, Thomas Coke, C.S. Why is Guidepost Solutions now involved? list of non calvinist theologiansleap year program in python using for loop. God is immense beyond our comprehension and because of that, I do not believe the Calvinist ideas of Sovereignty (or the related principles of TULIP). . In addition to Dees remarks on unity, Id also like to add the following: we all accept the historic Christian creeds of the early church (Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian) and the church councils, which means we all accept the most important teachings on Christs Person, His Deity and resurrection, and the teachings on the Trinity. By accurate, I mean that its the definition of the term when it came into being. Been there, done that, have the scars (healing, but still) to prove it! Of course Calvinism is not the only theological construct that has been used to hurt people. Im glad I know that now. They just want to give us a little more time and "context" to receive the brilliance. Im talking about TULIP. There were many songs that resonated with me, especially I Dont Know How to Love Him. for me that meant there was much i had to learn about loving Jesus. Calvinism: Tiptoe through the TULIP - Baptist Standard #7 Scott J, Jan 10, 2006 I chose to believe in the sovereignty of God and the goodness of God, even though I dont understand how those two things can co-exist. I think almost all theists answer yes, but its a hard thing to hear for that woman. But, if, during an online conversation about Calvinism, someone writes that the discussion is disturbing to him/her, certain questions arise beyond the obvious point that its wrong to attack that person: Should the conversation be halted? How is that? Wow. Hopefully that will be winding down soon and Ill be able to get back on track this week or next. Some of the formers non- above-board activities may be partly an outgrowth of his beliefs. Here is my point as a non-theology major. CALVIN!, The Bible? Roger E. Olson(born 1952) is Professor of Theology,George W. Truett Theological Seminary,Baylor University,Waco, Texas, USA.[1][2]. who needs systems & neat little boxes? Toward that end, here are five Baptist theologians from the past I commend as must reading for every Baptist pastor. This sort of stuff is bad and will cause an increase in problems within the church universal. Almost every theological viewpoint, and every Christian denomination, has a corresponding Systematic Theology book that reflects their positions on different topics of Scripture. Based on my experience, the experience of Oasis both of us who have had very difficult childhood abuse experiences and other stories Ive been reading, especially of teens abandoning their faith, having emotional breakdowns and even suicide, why do we need to focus on Calvins system? elatigirl Im with you here, which is why I dont post much on these theological threads It seems useless to me to try to figure out God especially as Scripture makes it clear that he has many attributes on either end of the spectrum. One more point- there have been those on this board who have argued before (in fact, I think Dee was one) that there is a difference between God causing something and God allowing something. I think the biblical examples might sometimes be God working with someones sin; for example, the hardening of Pharaohs heart, and that might still be happening today in some cases, and not always involving sin, such as God giving us the words as we witness to someone.) Good post Dee (If Im allowed to comment on this one!). In light of this, RC understands that free will cannot possibly be free, by definition. Calvinism | Reformed Theology and Apologetics I dont want to convince anyone of a certain brand of Christianity. They never want to explain just what this glory is, as you said. @ dee: Because the complementarian doctrine is Gods will. That should be enough to cause himto squirm. Neither is TULIP. I was allowed to believe in Gods love in terms that made sense to me. Both had a very strong influence on the Nouvelle Thologie of the 20th century. I will never go back to Calvinism because I cant recall a single moment that I felt any certainty of Gods love for me in that system. Do you share these thoughts? He is married with two children. I dont think my faith would have survived such a horrible doctrine. On this Wikipedia the language links are at the top of the page across from the article title. He also read the Gospel of John for the first time, (it was given to him), while smoking pot. @ Muff Potter: I know this all too well, Im afraid, but it goes for *anything* even art, music, theater, etc. That is where I focus when it comes to the existence of evil and suffering. I know it bothers you when you feel a belief is misrepresented. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Enter your email address to follow this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. Ham- as a proof text for poor science. People can make Reformed theology or Calvinism whatever they want, but the WCF is a clear historical document that does a good job of giving a baseline for discussion. That article Early Jesus Freak Movement Hollywood Free Paper country As Sixties(TM) as Rowan & Martins Laugh-In and then some. First of all we have to understand that what is affirmed- that God ordains whatsoever comes to pass from all eternity- is not unique to Reformed theology. Tthe book recommend by someone on this thread, Is God to Blame? Is helping me shake off the residual effects of hyper-Calvinism, too. Ah yes, those were the days A friend of mine came to the Lord while living in the hills above Santa Barbara in a teepee and smoking a lot of pot He and his wife were some of the most sane, grounded people I knew in the 80s. Okay, that makes it a little less OCD. Because he did not adhere to the beliefs of his well-known pastor. But so what. But RC, as a neo-Cal intellectual, is, I think, trying to avoid what so many Calvinists do with regularity, and have no problem with it: concede that at the root of what they believe are ideas that simply cannot be reconciled. View all posts by Joshua Wu Kai-Ming. I have not had that experience. Yet looking at a book's cover, or even . (But I always wondered why, if it was not His desire that any man should perish, that He also would create someone specifically for hell?? Demand they defend their ideas. I believe Sproul when he says that he knows of no Calvinist who, without any difficulty, welcomed what the Bible said about election, etc. I was drawn to the faith forseveral years due to my reading as well as viewing Billy Graham on the television. Calvinism Jesse Morrell. Does that make me not a Calvinist? Nope. Wade is never too tired to defend what he believes, and he will not eschew the oppositions venue. 9. Wow! Also, not all Calvinists are believe in particular pre-destination that is, not all Calvinists believe God causes everything, there are degrees from some just view salvation as pre-destined, to others believing you are reading this because God ordained it from the beginning, so Pipers view of tornadoes is not universally agreed on by Calvinists. It is counterproductive. Dee, thank you for sharing that testimony, and article. Jeff as the saying goes: may all your tribes increase. You seem to know the internal workings of God which amazes me. which many people hold as dear as religion and political beliefs. (Okay, back into lurk..later, yall!). But even more enigmatic is how man, being inexorably morally corrupt compared to God is never in a position to even KNOW the difference, since KNOWING good from evil implies that man can actually, of himself, wholly apart from God, freely embrace by his WILL the TRUTH of what is good, or reject it. Probably about 0.27 Pinkie Pies worth.

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